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  • #46
    EVE the indirect control was a killer, but I liked the idea of the timed learning as it gave the impression that your char was actually doing something the rest of the time instead of just sitting twiddling his thumbs waiting for you to come back, also to me the way learning worked felt more natural and the gating really stopped you jumping too far ahead too fast.

    I've not tried elite but the lack of direction is something that I think would ultimately kill it for me, but then I don't play games for supposed realism, I play them to have fun and being left with no clue what to do and next to no instruction (either in the form of a manual or tutorial) just kills the fun for me.

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    • #47
      EVE fixed the tutorial ages ago. It has one of the best tutorials for any game I've ever seen now.

      EVE never rewarded you for not playing though... your skills simply kept training while you were offline. Imagine this. You buy EVE, log on and create a character and log in once a day for 30 seconds for 2 years just to queue up skills. First of all you're going to run out of money to buy skills so you've already been punished for not playing. Second by the time you're trained to fly some big ships you'll have no experience with the game or with the ship, so you'll just die the first time you encounter an enemy losing a very expensive ship. You've been punished again for NOT playing. Third you're going to have no reputation with any factions, so when you've trained for your big bad battleship you're going to have to spend ages (literally days of intense playing) to get enough reputation with someone to unlock level 4 missions so you can properly use your battleship. You've just been punished again for not playing.

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      • #48
        EVE did update it's tutorials but they were still fairly basic and didn't really help you learn builds and how to head for a "career" path you want.

        in the past with it I did mining and manufacturing, but ultimately to even find out what to do it took a lot of reading of third party sites, it's the same as I would love to go in doing exploration but learning what skill set to use is just way too much reading and can change drastically from one site to the next, meaning it is just a load of guess work.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Belimawr View Post
          EVE did update it's tutorials but they were still fairly basic and didn't really help you learn builds and how to head for a "career" path you want.

          in the past with it I did mining and manufacturing, but ultimately to even find out what to do it took a lot of reading of third party sites, it's the same as I would love to go in doing exploration but learning what skill set to use is just way too much reading and can change drastically from one site to the next, meaning it is just a load of guess work.
          Nah once you reach a certain level of competency with the game only minimal reading is needed. For example exploration just requires you to learn how to scan. You scan down a signature (radar, ladar, magnometric or the other one) and warp to it. All you need to fit is a single module for each different one. For radar you need to fit a data analyzer thingie to crack open the boxes. And that's really all there is to it. The hardest part is scanning down the sites in the first place. The really juicy ones are all in low security space or no security space, meaning you might (will) get killed on your way there.

          Exploring wormholes is a lot more complicated. Finding them is easy - just scan down a black hole and travel through it. Once you're on the other side though the NPC enemies are tough as balls. So in that situation you need an excellent ship and some excellent combat skills (and preferably 5 or 6 other people with the same). So really, EVE doesn't reward you for not playing, it punishes you hard.

          Buy an account with 50 million skill points and billions of credits and all the best ships and immediately go in a wormhole... and watch as everybody laughs when you die in 3 seconds because you have no idea wtf you're doing.

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          • #50
            see you say it is that simple but it really isn't as yes you need scanning but you also need an idea what ships to be aiming for to get a good loadout and the weapons and such you need to defend your self on top of the equipment needed for the job.

            it's like when I did mining, sure I could have just went for mining, but ultimately I wanted drones and other things to keep pirates off me as going mining wasn't as simple as just get the mining skill, not to mention working out the ship skill trees to go down to get the ships capable of doing it.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Belimawr View Post
              see you say it is that simple but it really isn't as yes you need scanning but you also need an idea what ships to be aiming for to get a good loadout and the weapons and such you need to defend your self on top of the equipment needed for the job.

              it's like when I did mining, sure I could have just went for mining, but ultimately I wanted drones and other things to keep pirates off me as going mining wasn't as simple as just get the mining skill, not to mention working out the ship skill trees to go down to get the ships capable of doing it.
              I'm not disagreeing with you - in its early days it was a nightmare to figure stuff out and it did require a ton of reading, but I found that once I reached a basic level of competency I knew how to do stuff I had never done before or could make a fairly accurate educated guess as to what ship I would need and what I had to fit to it. A lot of stuff tied together as well. So if you learned about drones and shield tanking for your combat ship you could apply that knowledge to a mining ship. I never mined (outside of in the basic ship) but I could fully fit a Hulk for industrial-scale mining and fit the drones I needed too.

              If I was going to be mining in Amarr space I'd know to make my shields strong against Electromagnetic and Thermal damage (because in Amarr space all enemies deal heavy EM/Thermal damage) and I'd know to pack Hobgoblin and Hammerhead drones with me because enemies in Amarr space are also weak against EM/Thermal damage, and that's what kind of damage those drones fire. I'd know that despite never being a miner. I'd just ask in local or corp chat what kind of mining modules I needed to fit.

              Discovering stuff is half the fun in games like that. Fitting a ship and charging in to a situation and dying is how you learn. Or at least it's one of the ways you learn - the hands-on way that gives you the most experience. The other way is to do a bunch of reading, but then you'll know everything except you'll have no experience in it. Like in real life. Learn with your hands or learn with a book.

              I find the more there is to learn and do in a game the more attracted to it I am. That's probably why I kept going back to EVE periodically over a period of like 6 years. Everytime I went back I tried something new that I had never done before. Even after 6 years I was still learning things. One of the last times I went back someone told me about something called "transversial velocity", which is a fancy way of saying "don't approach your target by pointing the nose of your ship directly toward them because that makes you easier for their guns to track, approach at an angle instead".
              Last edited by Dayve; 06-04-15, 14:59.

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              • #52
                but the point is dayve for a standard mining loadout you likely wouldn't be looking into combat drones, you may look into mining drones, but to bring in combat and scavenging to let you go off alone or sit in a space mining while your escort can do the run with materials back to a hanger, this is the point if you wanted to just play a standard build it was easy enough, but you had a hell of a lot of complexity to go to a more abstract build. it's like my mining build most people took the opinion a miner should never be alone, but with a much more complex build you could fight off pirates and a lot of the smaller ships that came in fast to try to get a quick score before your escort got back.

                as for the ships being pretty self explanatory as you get into them, they really aren't taking mining ships, certain trees had better ships at different levels for both storage and slots, it was never just a case of keep working up one tree getting to the top and picking a ship from that and it was the best, that would work quite well for combat ships as just about every line had good combat ships but for more abstract use you needed to cross the lines a lot to get the ability to max out the load out with what you need for your job and the secondary systems you want to take more advantage of your position. so you still needed quite a bit of reading to find out the best systems and ships that will let you balance the load out you need.

                but then in a lot of places cross builds were seen as a taboo, as a hell of a lot of corps believed that people should try to max out one thing instead of trying to make them self versatile.

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                • #53
                  The other point, however, is who has the time to spend ages just learning how to play a GAME?
                  I work over 40 hours a week. I spend about 14 - 20 exercising. 7 hours maintaining the house.
                  Why on earth am I going to spend 40+ hours struggling with a game before I get to the bit where I am actually having any fun?
                  Quite frankly, I have hundreds (literally) of other games to play. And they don't actually require a sub either.
                  And I'm far from a "If it takes longer than ten minutes to learn, I just won't bother".
                  My favourite games are Civ and the like.
                  C'mon, there is a limit.

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                  • #54
                    thats what I agree with Jack, while there should be some learning curve in games some just take it way too far.
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                    but to me the cow leveling in EVE is a good thing as you don't have to spend months grinding in game to get skills, you can play and learn mechanics in shorter play sessions while the grinding is basically done on a time lock.

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                    • #55
                      The issue for me with eve, is that there's minimal skill. It's all learning the ropes, flying? Point and click and wait. Combat. Point and click and wait. Mining, point and click and wait. And wait. And wait.

                      Even wormhole exploration (my bag in eve before I got the urge to kill myself) loses it's appeal. I know people call it spaceship-excell, and you know what, they're right.

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                      • #56
                        they have added direct control of ships recently making me have an interest in going back.

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                        • #57
                          I've never played EVE, but every time I read about the big conflicts that happen I'm tempted to pick it up. The appeal with the game for me is the player run universe, and the intrigues and dramas that develop between the different factions. It's brilliant reading about how some little spark, like a conflict between a few ships, or a misunderstanding, leads to a battle with players numbering in the hundreds, and with real consequences on the outcome. Apparently much of the game is played in forums where machinations are formulated and deals are done.

                          It all sounds pretty cool, but tbh I'm quite contented just to read about it rather than devote a large amount of my life to it.

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                          • #58
                            Enough about EVE. Let me tell you of my adventures in Elite. I got my joystick today and played the game in the actual world as opposed to just the tutorial.

                            In the beginning there was Dayve (also known as Commander Daymian, because Damian, Dave, Dayve and Davey were already took), a basic starter ship that turns slower than the Titanic when in combat, and a pair of lazers that aren't powerful enough to turn bread in to toast. Oh and 1,000 credits, which isn't enough to do anything except refuel the ship when it's running low. I had watched a Youtube video where this fella flew around in frame shift at 30km/s (the slowest speed you can go in frame shift) and all these "unidentified thing" showed up and you can drop in on these little pockets of space and stuff happens in there and you can make money. So I decided I'd do this for a while. The first two times I found nothing but ships saying "Best prices paid for technology!" so I couldn't do anything. Third time I found an NPC ship with a bounty on it so I started to shoot it. All was well until he got behind me and I couldn't shake him off, so I charged my warp drive up and got the fuck out of there. Then I went back to the station and spent around 200 credits repairing my ship. Down to 800 credits.

                            Next I decided I'd scan some planets - I hear you can sell this info to cartographers who are mapping the galaxy. So I scanned one easily enough and then noticed something very close called "strong signal source", so I dropped in on it and saw "Get him boys!" in the chat box, where I was immediately set upon by 3 NPC bandits. Since I couldn't even beat the one NPC I tried to fight earlier I knew it would be futile to try to fight three, so I charged my frame drive up and got the fuck out of there... except it took ages to charge up due to the disturbance from combat (I think?) and I escaped with my hull only 16% intact and my engines malfunctioning. It took me ages to get back to a station because this particular engine malfunction meant my ship slowed down much slower than usual, so I kept overshooting the station by about 1000 miles. 600 credit repair cost.

                            So after 4 hours of play I'm down 800 credits, have 200 credits left and still have no idea how to make money. There will be further adventuring tomorrow no doubt.

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                            • #59
                              1: Restart. There's an option on the main menu to reset your save.
                              2: Use the bulletin board to pick up courier jobs, just remember to check that you can actually get to the destination before you accept it!
                              3: You can trade by using the commodoties market, but not every station has one! (It will tell you on the system map which stations have it and which don't.

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                              • #60
                                Okay, I didn't restart but I did start doing those courier missions. They're giving me about a thousand credits each. I'm also picking up a lot of cartography date as I naturally fly around and that's worth about 50,000 credits - I just need to find a place to sell it. When I have the cash I'll buy some of those auto-tracking lazers and cannons and whatnot and give combat another try. I know where I was going wrong in combat by the way; I was only using forward thrust, not reverse or directly up and down, left and right. For some reason my brain locks in to "fighter jet" mode when I'm in combat, like in Battlefield. I need to train it to understand that I can stop and reverse just as easily as I can go forward.

                                Oh and good news - it no longer takes me 3 minutes to position my ship right for docking. I've got it down to about 10-20 seconds. I'm getting better! Woo.

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